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Amber "Athena Twin PMS" Dalton sits down with Moogle to talk about her clan, her role, and eSports in general.
For those living under a rock, can you briefly talk about the team (PMS) and how it all began? Pandora’s Mighty Soldiers (PMS Clan) was formed at the launch of Xbox Live in 2002 when my sister (Athena PMS a/k/a Valkarie of the Fragdolls) and I played with the first female we ran across and had an amazing time! We were having so much fun laughing and playing that day that we realized a female clan would be a great way to have that experience everyday. We met up with a couple other ladies, including Fraggity Ann who is now known as PMS BoomStick, and have been happily fragging ever since. We are now global which spawns divisions not only in Xbox, but in PS2 and PC as well. Our main partner is Microsoft, and our main sponsor is Verizon FiOS. Our ultimate mission is to provide a fun and competitive environment for female gamers. Keeping our heads high when people tell us we suck or we don’t deserve what we get out of gaming. Not many realize that not every PMS girl is a professional player, and not everyone should be expected to be. We are a community first, and we just happened to have some talent develop in that community. Also, constantly battling the “women can’t game” stereotype is really getting old. “They don’t have any major wins!” Yeah, I guess a lot of gamers do not realize that we have placed top 8 four times in PRO events like CPL, WSVG, and CGS. “Why not top 4?” We got a 2nd place finish at CGS. “Well, why not 1st?” For many, I have come to realize we will never be good enough no matter if we get a first or not. It is not just an obstacle it is a freakin’ steel-enforced giant mountain! Some communities are worse then others of course, although some embrace us with open arms. A very mixed bag, indeed. On a lighter note, I take pride in the fact that we compete in co-ed events, and we’ll happily take lower placements in order to play with the best out there. There are thousands of guys, and they outnumber us in competitive game types like FPS by a large margin, but once we accomplish our goal of getting more female gamers (and keep the women motivated in playing), I expect we will have a larger pool of talent to draw from and get that elusive 1st place win. This will not be easy though, everyone knows the talented individuals that go to professional events are the best in the country. They are almost ALL amazing people as well. You are right, the competitors have amazing talent. They also featured Lil’ Poison, who does not have a slew of wins either, but he is certainly newsworthy, being only 8 and hanging with the professionals! He is not the norm, and that is why he is so amazing for us to hear about. I am not the norm either. So, I will start off by saying it does not matter if I feel I should have been there…I am just honored that a major publication feels that I should. Obviously, EGM chose me not for my gaming skills per-say. But you can’t escape the fact that PMS was the first all- female team to ever get a major placement in a co-ed professional event; that happened to be a team I played on. I have also led or coached many other top placements of our female members, who may not have been there if it had not been for PMS Clan. Basically, EGM said that this was the list of gamers that were “on their way to being household names,” and I think EGM was recognizing someone in a group who didn’t just PLAY, didn’t just WIN, but was instead being recognized for doing something they felt is good for gaming as a whole. I think they believed PMS Clan and myself are “dangerous” because we make people realize they need to do more then “just play” …and they felt that was newsworthy enough to recognize. For instance, we have helped raised over $20,000 for charity at the Celebrity Gaming tournament with FiOS. That was part of our "Gaming for A Cause" initiative we started last March. We are doing a similar event at Digital Life for scholarships with the Art Institute of Pittsburgh. We have also supported the growth of this industry with writers & volunteers across many gaming outlets, provided a unique group for women empowerment, supported and participated in industry research, helped educate the industry at conference panels & contract assignments, AND had several top placements. Yes, I would think a lot of gamers might find that dangerous…especially when you sit across from them at a tournament and see their hands start shaking because they are scared at even the possibility of losing to a girl, haha. Are we the best? No, and we never say we are. We are just gamers like anyone else — we just happen to be female, which causes a stir sometimes. But I certainly take pride in the fact that we help the industry and the mainstream audiences take note of gaming and female gaming. Also, we have been “newsworthy” enough to get features in Entertainment Tonight, ABC/NBC News, Fox Sports Radio, AOL, G4TV, Yahoo, MTV, Entertainment Weekly, EGM, and Tips and Tricks magazine to name a few. Mainstream audiences like to support unique stories. I guess they felt that was key to being a “household name.” Page:
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Sunday November 22 2009 | |||||
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User Comments
Good iview
its a sterotype that im sure is old but will never go away due to the fact that as of right now its true, in PC or Console game women never come anywhere near being top players. CGS doesnt count as it was an invite tournament and where was Katsumi Chan at the WCG qualifiers for DOA4? I would really love to see any female take 1st or even top 3 in a major tournament but for that to happen someone needs to step up and actually put in the practice hours that all the male competitors do and stop falling back on the fact that they have boobs which gets them all they media attention they could need regardless of how they place in tournaments
And to #4, RTFA. She said they play in co-ed tournaments, not female-only ones. Stop your griping.
They claimed they placed "well" in a large tournament. Was it that CPL Halo tournament where no top teams participated and the PMS team finished top 8 out of 16 teams? Is that a good finish?
It's funny how she points out that little Poison kid as also having not won tournaments. Well, he's also eight years old. What's a bigger accomplishment? Being a little kid placing well at console tournaments against hundreds of people, or being 26 and placing poorly? Oh that's right, you're a girl. You must be severely handicapped when playing video games in some way. How exactly?
I personally have seen no one respond negatively to girl gamers, especially those that are decent. At LANs, the girl gamers generally get treated better than anyone else.
I have a personal dislike for these girls teams as they claim they want equality, but the only reason they get any attention is because they bask in that inequality. A girl who actually wanted to do well in tournaments would practice harder and place better at the events. A girl who just want attention for being mediocre and wearing tight pants would do what these girls teams are doing.
Clan PMS and the Ragdolls do nothing but support the idea that as long as you're a woman, you can get a free ride as long you have a pretty face and perky breasts. This does nothing but make the difference of sexes even more obvious which seems to be contrary to these groups' supposed goal. Hypocrites.
Hit me up belle =)
I think its nice more women are getting into gaming, but the male:female ratio of big tournament placings, is exactly the same as the male:female ratio of people who actually play videogames
that simple really
#20
I ask you to step back at look at it from this perspective: How many male-only teams are out there...and you want to pick on us for having female only teams? That doesn't seem fair. We have our guys, and we take great pride in them. However, you can’t deny the fact that if we had guys are our team that many gamers would point fingers saying we are getting the "free ride" off them. We have to do it on our own first. Free ride as it is? We are trying hard to earn every thing we get, and I am honestly exhausted from trying to get some to see that. I guarantee we work just as hard (if not harder) then allot of gamers out there. We are not just trying to do the best we can at tournaments, we try to do the best we can on online ladders, local events, industry events…everything! We take our roles as gamers seriously. We ARE earning everything we get, on and off the game stage. As I stated in the interview, we do more then just play...we try to help the community at large and work on promoting growth in the industry overall. :)
Also, I did not address Little Poison's validity in being on that page; I love him and think he has EVERY right to be there with the top players. I was answering the question that was directed to me about myself being in EGM with the top placed PROs like Ogres who were rcognized with "all those wins." The Ogres and their team are amazing, and certainly deserved that spot for more then their “wins” as well. They take their roles as Professional Gamers seriously, and serve as an amazing role models to gamer everywhere. I merely pointed out that Lil Poison was a unique and interesting story for media and mainstream audiences, and he was listed as well without a slew of "wins" the interviewer referenced. I was pointing out that EGM's probable intent was to show that PRO gaming is NOT just about 1st place wins, but also about the players themselves and what they bring to the community. Men, Women, and Kids. Get it? :P
BTW, we placed Championship Bracket at 2005 MLG Houston, had two (not one) teams finish top 8 at CPL, 1 team finish top 8 at WSVG, and Kasumi Chan finished 2nd at CGS. She lost to Master (1st place WCG). So, how doesn't that count #15? I see 1st and 2nd placements on 3D and Complexity’s resume, why can’t it be on ours? Why, because we are girls? Also, console is where we started, (and our largest) division, and major console events just started last year (and that was only one game Halo). New games & tournament games are coming now with the 360, so hopefully we will get a chance to compete more and hopefully place more. This is what I meant in the interview, that not matter what we do…it will still never be enough for some. :(
FYI, Kasumi did not enter into WCG, and that was why she did not have an opportunity to earn a spot there. Mystic, however, WAS there. She placed 3rd at the regional finals, and went to finals when 2nd place was not able to attend, so she earned that spot rightly. Believe me, I would love to see a top 3 placement at an event like WCG, and we are working in it! :p
#21
Yes, you are right unfortunately, it does represent the ratio of competitive gamers. We are working on that too! :)
#19
While it might be true that there is a faster hand/eye differences, it is not so distinct as to mean the difference between a win or loss. Women also have some advantages as well...like a steadier hand in intense moments of game play due to the lower adrenaline rush compared to men. This is what can help them be a sure-shot in tough combat situations and sniping. Men have to work harder in to get pass the adrenaline rush factor, although an experienced player will almost always be able to master it. We can do it, we just need to commit ourselves to it at an advance level (which we started last year), and get the experience under our belt like most of the guys have. And we have certainly been working on that. :p
P.S. to "Note from Editor - Scoots <3's Amber”
I <3 you too! :p
Haha, NO! You want it, get it from her yourself :P
:)
If that's not a free ride, I don't know what is.
That DirectTV event doesn't count because it used goofy rulesets and invited a lot of folks who really had no business being there. Like the rest of the world, I don't follow DOA4. The game's used in tournaments because Microsoft is behind it, not because it's a game suited for competition. Any fighting game fan knows the Dead or Alive series has always been far behind almost any other fighting franchise on the market when it comes to gameplay that promotes skill.
I want to see a girl or a girls team do well at real gaming events. I don't like seeing average gamers get praise just because of their gender, and I feel that this needless praise will just make it harder for girls who actually manage to perform well as everyone will just be reminded of joke teams like Clan PMS or the Frag Dolls.
Go to a big tourney and place well, then let yourself be interviewed for being a great gamer.
Or just drop the act that you're good, and promote girls in gaming.
No one has a problem with you getting more girls into competitive gaming, but when it's done by ignoring the truth and expecting special treatment due to your sex, then that does nothing but set girls back in the competitive scene.
Also, it is not like we are taking the sponsors from the males...our sponosrs and partners are the ones that have NEVER even thought of sponsoring a team or player before. Microsoft had never partnered with ANY game group before us, and Verizon FiOS had never either. Do you know how many mainstream companies are following suit? How many are looking at other teams and players at this very moment...and getting into supporting tournaments at this very moment? Trust me when I say there is major intrest coming into gaming, and PMS Clan is a part in gaming's image that is helping to attract those major corporations. Just like all the major PROs are a part of that as well. Why do YOU think corporation's sponsor? MEDIA. And, you will never control media, they will ALWAYS do the stories they want to do, and what will appeal to thier readership base.
And, don't tell me we are putting women back in competitve gaming...what would YOU know about women? :p
And, BTW, DOA4 has a hardcore fan base, and it deserved the recognition it received. Those comments always makes me mad...it reminds me of when all the PC players were so mad that a $100k would go to Half-Life instead of the more popular CS. Why not recognize a great game and its audience? How do you know it is not a competitive game when you have nothing to do with that game or it’s community? It takes GREAT skill to play it, there are so many button combos, counter moves, and each set are unique to EACH character! That is hard as hell! Also, Microsoft Sponsored that game in the event because it was an XBOX game they wanted to promote...that is why sponsor go into tournaments TO PROMOTE. What do you think they should done, sponsor Tekken for the Ps2? ROFL. Or would you have preferred it not have been there all, since YOU don't play it...
OK, I don't want to get into this, so I am just going to saty out of posting on this story, but the rest of you have fun! :)
I watched the PMS matches at CPL Summer and they can't aim, they made stupid mistakes, I don't even think they called any strats. Just.. Stop wasting the sponser's money on that team.
I've never had any problem with the idea of an all girls team. I know how lame guys can be sometimes, especially to girls, but when it comes down to segregated tournaments or praise for being "good for a girl" it really is a step back for girls in games.
To me, it seems like girl gamer organizations like Clan PMS and the Frag Dolls strongly say that they exist to break down the wall that exists that could deter female gamers from trying to play games competitively. The problem is, Clan PMS and the Frag Dolls get attention because they clearly market themselves as girls first and gamers second. They are successful not because of their gaming skills but because of their gender, and if equality is their goal, that certainly seems like a backwards way of accomplishing change.
I have great respect for those who hope to promote equality in any facet of life, but when it's done via hypocrisy, I can't help but doubt their sincerity.
The difference between male teams and female teams is that male teams aren't exclusively male and are judged on skill as to who gets in, whereas female teams are exclusively female.
I personally would feel extremely patronised if I was being given sponsors and money for achieving worse than people of the opposite sex who get nothing.
Also i hate to break it to ya since we are so cool an all but...i have to rep for me boy KING because, Kasumi chan Never fought him at CGS IN the tournament. KING lost because i took him out, However she did take out the other girls and Adande AKA Swoozie who i believe is sponsored by a team now but not sure which one. Anyway Beating swoozie is still big because as ME and KING where waiting for our match we saw how KC took Swoozie out and we couldnt believe it! she still earned here 2nd place finish thats for sure.
MASTER
The reason why the perception is often the fact that they are girls first, then gamers second, is often a factor of the media. This isn't a gripe about the media, but rather just a factor of how it appears.
Remember the old adage of Man Bites Dog; for most media outlets, the fact that they are women is what makes the story and media exists to tell a story. Thus, the focus is often on the fact that they are women. It's a tricky situation, but one that is quite necessary in the effort for people all over (including more women!) to see that gaming isn't just for boys.
If you ever meet the PMS girls you will notice that they very much are just gamers who happen to be female. Before you continue to judge, speak with some of them and you'll see how down to earth they are - they love to play games and it shows.
Until the day comes when the gaming world is equally male and female, groups like PMS exist to help foster a community. Many of the girls in PMS wouldn't play games nearly as much without the other females there to support them. It's no different than say, the Society of Women Engineers - just a way for women to bond when they are the minority in a group. I think we are all striving for equality; but we can't just wait for it to magically happen. That's why PMS exists.
Opp, I am sorry , I messed that up! I corrected my post and tell him I am sorry! Haha, I forgot it was Swoozie! Anyway, I <3 you both!
And Fallout, yes I understand why you fell the way you do, but I just don't think it is fair to judge us because we have sponsors. And like I said, there are also guys that have sponsors with less wins then we do (while I also realize there are great teams/players that do not as well). What I am saying is be happy for anyone that has them, because that surely means many more will get them as the industry goes. We ARE girls, and we take pride in that! We will never hang our head in shame over it, and I will not feel bad in embracing who we are. Yes, I like pink and like to wear lipstick, but that does not mean I or many of my girls, take my game less serious then the next. We try hard to represent a postive image ot women first, which support our mission of providing a fun and competative place for our members.
And thanks, Wedgewu...you are very astute and correct! I think any that have met us in person realize this, and it is nice to see someone post this! :)
#27, That was thier first event, and it was a team created just a few weeks before event. I realize that they were not the best, but I take pride in them for having the courage to go there agianst the best and try :)
Here's a little tidbit on the CS team.. We had been together a total of 2 months. We did insanely well for NONE of us ever competing before, and even better considering we had only been a team for 2 months... the teams we played and the other teams there had been together for many months and had been playing CS for years... Most of our team was previously CSS players who had to switch to 1.6 for CPL, and none of us regret it. I had only been playing CS for two months... yeah, try playing at CPL with that under your belt.
It was amazing and amazing experience, myself and my team learned so much and have gotten much better. The next tournament we go to, you better watch out. We're stepping up our game. =]
As Master said, KC beat sWooZie to make the finals but it's noteworthy that if you watch the match against Master she made him sweat a little too ;-) I know I was standing right there behind him feeling the heat, heh heh.
DoA's 'skill' level is easily on par with any other fighting game and that been proven time and again when players from other fighting games have picked it up for a short period only to lost to serious dedicated DoA players.
Even the great fighting game player Justin Wong recently lost early at the DoA4 EVO tournament to a couple of DoA players including OffBeatNinja who is going to Italy to represent Canada in DoA. Dedicated players have proven the 'skill level' and comments to contrary are simply from ignorance of the game or from those have prefer other fighter's style.
For females to place higher I believe the main thing that's needed is simply more girls competing giving them more chances to have girls at the top. What you're doing in PMS Clan is part of making that happen.
Complexity is not an all male team.. if there was a girl good enough to play on their roster believe me she would be on it. Complexity does not have on their front page " COMPLEXITY : ALL MALE COUNTERSTRIKE TEAM"
It's a sad day in the e-sports community when good teams get passed by on sponsorships to teams with less skill just because of their sex. IMO.
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