Hester gets far to much credit for what he does, he's fast and that's really just about it. How people don't realize the bears have had an incredible special teams for quite some time now I just don't understand. Hester literally runs straight lines in over half the returns in that video because the blocking is so good. Not sure if you have every watched a bears game, but when Hester tries to make people miss or runs to the side instead of accelerating straight down the field he rarely makes a decent play and often loses yards.
Hester isn't incredibly fast. He's fast, but he's not near the fastest returner in the game.
What Hester has is great stride. I don't think there's a player in the league that can run at top speed for as long as Hester can. That's what makes him so outstanding.
To say Hester is only good because of the Bears special teams is ridiculous. Obviously you need a good core guys to have a dynamite return game, but the majority of that is on the returner's shoulders.
He'll sometimes have ineffective plays because that's the boom-bust mentality you get when you know you can break one at any time. Barry Sanders always tried to create. Hester always tries to create.
To say the guy "rarely makes a decent play and often loses yards" is not putting things into perspective... at all. And it's really silly.
You'll look back at that statement in history and laugh at yourself. For real. To think Hester couldn't go to another team with a decent special teams and still be the best returner in the game is just ignorance imo... Special teams blockers are implored to play better when they actually have someone that can do something behind them.
Put Big Ben back returning kicks for the bears and you can bet your butt they don't work as hard on their blocks.
To punish Hester because he has a good special teams working with him is just dumb, honestly.
Do you complain that Tom Brady's O-line is too good? Or that Peyton Manning has great receivers?
Does anyone say AP is only good because he runs behind the Vikings O-line? (not jokingly)
You're looking at history in the making and you're brushing it off like it's a result of circumstance...
the guy returned the kickoff in the superbowl to cap it off... sure as heck didn't run in a straight line there (and for the record, most of the clips he doesn't run in a straight line... however that IS the quickest way to the endzone, and your #1 priority).
If there is ANY player in the league that is NOT overrated, it's Devin Hester. And I am NOT a fan of the Bears by any means.
Now I didn't really watch any bears games so correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm looking at the stats for kickoff returns from this season and I don't really get it. He is tied for third in TD kickoff returns with 2, and is 23nd for average yards per return for players with over 30 kickoff returns (35th if you go from 20 returns minimum), yet he gets tons of publicity. Am I missing something?
4 PR touchdowns to go on top of those 2 KR touchdowns... and then 2 receiving touchdowns if that matters at all.
and he's done that two years in a row.
and he almost did it again in the pre-season (lol) until his teammate tripped him up in the open. and he did it in the superbowl. and he pretty much single-handedly won the Denver game... etc. His impact goes beyond stats. I would even argue his average-per-return isn't absolutely staggering because teams often try to pin him or kick away from him... They try to put the ball in a position that may be great field position for the receiving team, but at least the returner (Hester) wont have an opportunity to return it farther. But yeah, Hester's bred and butter isn't from kickoffs... it's from punts.
his play got the bears to the superbowl (along with their defense) but hester consistently had the bear's offense at mid-field if not farther a majority of the time. remember the superbowl where he opened the game with a KR for a TD?
The advantage he gives his offense every time he returns a kick or a punt is incredible (if not 6 points). To know this and look the other way is ignorance.
You're complaining that in college all he did was return kicks? Who the hell cares. He is now in the NFL, the cream of the crop of football, and he is still doing the same thing. Now it's his fault because this is all he does in the NFL? Give the guy a break. Football is a team game, and he is right now one of the Bears' greatest assets.
#12 nobody's saying hester's play will win championships. all we're saying is that he's the best returner in the NFL. last time i checked kick/punt returns didn't win championships. they can certainly impact the game, though...ala arizona 2 years ago and denver last year...and DARREN SPROLES vs the colts last year...
and if derek anderson has a bandwagon i'm the driver of that sh*t because i've been on his nuts since the day charlie frye was cut.
oh and i'm a huge bears fan. hester's not overrated, and grossman's underrated. hester's the best kick returner to ever play and i'm saying that after his 2nd season in the nfl. after the 1st season, everyone said they wouldn't kick to him anymore because of what he's capable of. guess what...they were very aware what he was capable of the 2nd time around and he still delivered. #12 a return for a TD has a tremendous impact on a game...it just shifts the momentum so much that it's easy to use that as a play to jump start a comeback or a drive to pull away from your opponent.
it's pretty obvious you don't know football so i'm just gonna stop now. you shouldn't make remarks about football if the only game you watch out of the season is the superbowl.
and the bears just need an offense now (and less injuries plz) to take advantage of the incredible field position they get from having hester deep.
edit: and he's great for the league. he's so much fun to watch because you know at any time he can take one to the house...it's similar to watching michael vick or barry sanders.
yes, he is the best. #15 put it correctly. he's tied and broke records in just his first 2 years playing in the NFL. theres no where to go but up from there. even in the pro bowl he's done great at returning. while he didn't get one in the endzone during the game, he got pretty dam close for returning against an all star special teams unit. just goes to show he doesn't need the same players on his team to take one back.
I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I had a choice, I'd rather go to war. - George W. Bush
#7 Hester is one of the fastest players in the ENTIRE NFL. He ran a 4.35 40 coming out of college. Only three NFL players are clocked at under a 4.3 time and only a handful more are clocked at 4.33 and this doesn't even take into account game speed. Hester is considered the fastest in pad player in the league, if you can name another I would be impressed, especially a returner. Hester doesn't have a large stride at all he actually has a rather small stride watch the video it's pretty small and jittery, Randy Moss has what is a large stride granted he taller.
I am not taking all Hester's credit I just find it funny that everyone thinks he is so spectacular when in reality he is only THAT good because of the players around him.
To say put Big Ben back there and the players won't try is just stupid. First of all special teams is how you make it on a team when you are a young player. Those guys are always giving 110% and second of all is that why the Bears special teams was so successful when RW McQuarters used to return punts for the Bears? He was one of the best in the league.
Haha complaining? I am hardly complaining. If you haven't heard someone say that Tom Brady is good because of his O-line or Peyton Manning is as good as he is because of his receivers then you obviously don't talk football very often or with very intelligent people.
Peyton Manning is a prime example actually. Look at how well he did when he has had injuries through his receiving core, good hardly great.
AP? He is good in large part to his O-line, but also a spectacular player. That's why he averages, 4 yards to the right side and almost 7 yards to the left side of the line where 2 probowlers play.
All these players are great players and all players are affected by the team around them no doubt. Hester happens to have the best special teams in the league though. What he does is still good I never said it wasn't but if you really think he is the least overrated player in the league you are kidding yourself. Tom Brady wins that hands down (LT a close second), he wins year after year and hasn't had great players around him until las year. Hester is hyped every week and if you look at the special teams of the teams he scores against they aren't exactly great special teams. The Broncos and Vikings had some of the leagues worst special teams.
All records are broken by teams you can say what you want but it's the truth. In reality Hester will break the records for return TD's and possibly yards although he is really only a big play threat and doesn't have the consistency. Point is he is overrated and I really can't wait to see him make a fool of himself playing WR next year.
QUOTE: Hester is one of the fastest players in the ENTIRE NFL. He ran a 4.35 40 coming out of college. Only three NFL players are clocked at under a 4.3 time and only a handful more are clocked at 4.33 and this doesn't even take into account game speed.
First of all, Devin Hester ran a 4.45 40 yard dash at the 2006 combine, not a 4.35. I know that because it was a pretty big knock on him at the time. He ran better on his pro day, but he ran 4.45 at the combine.
Besides... there are plenty of returners that clock at 4.3 speed. 4.35 is irrelevant come game time... 4.35, 4.39, 4.33, 4.32... they are all the same. Just off the top of my head...
DeAngelo Hall clocked a 4.15 if I remember Maurice Drew clocked a 4.39, and he's no-where near the fastest returner. Reggie Bush was 4.33
QUOTE:Hester doesn't have a large stride at all he actually has a rather small stride watch the video it's pretty small and jittery...
And I never said Hester had a great long stride, I said he had a great stride. There's a difference. Not sure where you got long stride from.
QUOTE:Hester is considered the fastest in pad player in the league, if you can name another I would be impressed, especially a returner.
There are plenty of guys about as fast, or faster than Hester clocked in at. But like I said, it's gamespeed (his constant top-end speed... his stride) that makes him so good. You're just repeating what I'm saying.
QUOTE:" Haha complaining? I am hardly complaining. If you haven't heard someone say that Tom Brady is good because of his O-line or Peyton Manning is as good as he is because of his receivers then you obviously don't talk football very often or with very intelligent people. "
Um... I said that with the understanding that that is a terrible argument to make. No intelligent person makes that argument. No "intelligent" football people say Tom Brady is only good because of his line, or Manning is only good because of his receivers. It's dumb to do that, and that's my point. Obviously it helps, but to say they are players of circumstance is ludicrous.
QUOTE: Point is he is overrated and I really can't wait to see him make a fool of himself playing WR next year.
And Hester being good, or bad at WR next year doesn't have anything to do with anything. I don't think I've ever said once that he's a great receiver. He's a great player at his position (returner).
QUOTE: To say put Big Ben back there and the players won't try is just stupid. First of all special teams is how you make it on a team when you are a young player. Those guys are always giving 110%
And the Big Ben comment is totally relevant. It's just a fact of life, people work harder when they have more reason to work. If you don't think that's true, you need more life experience... at anything. Because it applies to everything. There's not some magical exception to that rule just because you're on a football field. An O-line blocks harder for a good RB, a WR works harder with a good QB, most QB try* to take better care of the ball with a good defense. And most special teams players work harder when you have Hester, or Cribbs, or anyone of the likes behind them. That's reality. It's not debatable. It's contradictory to say the Bears have this hall-of-fame-worthy special teams blocking for him, and allude to the fact that they have an issue with job security. It doesn't go both ways. Yes, special teams players generally are always trying to prove something, but yes, you still work harder with more reason to work. That's life. Furthermore, they're not about to give him a big fat contract if it's true they could really throw just anyone in there and have them be effective. Let's be sensible here.
QUOTE:" Peyton Manning is a prime example actually. Look at how well he did when he has had injuries through his receiving core, good hardly great. "
Ok you're just talking at this point.
Peyton went over 4,000 yards for the 8th time in his career last year. He completed 65.4% of his passes (better than his career average). He threw for 31 TDs (tied for third-most of his career).
He had a 98 QB rating (higher than his career average, yet again).
Top it all off with the fact that Peyton has only thrown for over 4,000 yards and 30 TDs three times prior in his entire career... where you get off saying he played merely "good" and not "great" is disinformation. Obviously, he would play better with Marvin fully healthy, but he still played great... not just by anyone elses standards, but by his own career standards.
#18 have you ever seen Chris Johnson from ECU run?
Ran a 4.24 at the combine.
I got to see him run in real life and that dude is absolute lightning. Honestly I would say hes more elusive than Hester. Ive never seen anybody who can change direction the way he can
Him and Lendale White are going to be the perfect thunder and lightning combination, watch out.
The "*PEW* *PEW* *PEW* *PEW* ^^FIREWORKXZZZZ^^" Guy.
QUOTE: First of all, Devin Hester ran a 4.45 40 yard dash at the 2006 combine, not a 4.35. I know that because it was a pretty big knock on him at the time. He ran better on his pro day, but he ran 4.45 at the combine.
Besides... there are plenty of returners that clock at 4.3 speed. 4.35 is irrelevant come game time... 4.35, 4.39, 4.33, 4.32... they are all the same. Just off the top of my head...
DeAngelo Hall clocked a 4.15 if I remember Maurice Drew clocked a 4.39, and he's no-where near the fastest returner. Reggie Bush was 4.33
First of all I never mentioned the combine, Hester did however run a 4.35 coming out of college. Secondly thank you for summing up my argument that he is one of the fastest players in the NFL you just named a handful who are about the same speed, exactly like what I said previously. DeAngelo Hall was not clocked like players are at the combine, a track coach used a stop watch so there is a large margin of error on his time although he does still run in the 4.33 range.
QUOTE: And I never said Hester had a great long stride, I said he had a great stride. There's a difference. Not sure where you got long stride from.
Stride refers to the distance of someone running or walking, hence having a good stride means that you stretch out well when you run. Hester has great footwork and can keep his top speed for a long distance, but hardly a great stride.
QUOTE: There are plenty of guys about as fast, or faster than Hester clocked in at. But like I said, it's gamespeed (his constant top-end speed... his stride) that makes him so good. You're just repeating what I'm saying.
You have never stated that Hester has great game speed that is what I originally said. As you said before:
QUOTE:Hester isn't incredibly fast. He's fast, but he's not near the fastest returner in the game.
That's the complete opposite of what you are saying now, which one is it? Hester is THE fast game-speed player in the NFL, hands down.
QUOTE: And Hester being good, or bad at WR next year doesn't have anything to do with anything. I don't think I've ever said once that he's a great receiver. He's a great player at his position (returner).
Fair enough, I just can't wait for him to embarrass himself and see all Chicago's fans get upset.
QUOTE: Um... I said that with the understanding that that is a terrible argument to make. No intelligent person makes that argument. No "intelligent" football people say Tom Brady is only good because of his line, or Manning is only good because of his receivers. It's dumb to do that, and that's my point. Obviously it helps, but to say they are players of circumstance is ludicrous.
I never once stated that Tom Brady is ONLY good because of his o-line or that Peyton Manning is ONLY good because of his receivers, but it is a large part of what have made the two as good as they are. You are saying Hester is only good because of Hester which is completely false.
QUOTE: And the Big Ben comment is totally relevant. It's just a fact of life, people work harder when they have more reason to work. If you don't think that's true, you need more life experience... at anything. Because it applies to everything. There's not some magical exception to that rule just because you're on a football field. An O-line blocks harder for a good RB, a WR works harder with a good QB, most QB try* to take better care of the ball with a good defense. And most special teams players work harder when you have Hester, or Cribbs, or anyone of the likes behind them. That's reality. It's not debatable. It's contradictory to say the Bears have this hall-of-fame-worthy special teams blocking for him, and allude to the fact that they have an issue with job security. It doesn't go both ways. Yes, special teams players generally are always trying to prove something, but yes, you still work harder with more reason to work. That's life. Furthermore, they're not about to give him a big fat contract if it's true they could really throw just anyone in there and have them be effective. Let's be sensible here.
Let me tell you a story about special teams. I played special teams all four years of my high school career. We had a kid on our team who had 9 return touchdowns his junior year and 15 more his senior year. He would be the first person to tell you that it wasn't because he was such a good returner it was because the blocking was so good. To further this point let me tell you something else. Our special players, not returner was the reason so many touchdowns were scored off of returns. We had a backup returner have 2 touchdowns his junior year and then 3 more his senior year on way less returns. Are you trying to tell me that we didn't try as hard when a backup came in? Hardly the team knew what it was capable of and it wasn't just one player fueling it. Also the special teams of the bears is as good as they are because of the effort put forth not necessarily the skill they possess. They know if they make the team in their first few years that they will eventually become a position player, so it does go both ways. Again the Bears had a ton of success when RW McQuarters was their returner just a few years ago, Hester has better numbers because he is faster and has the break away speed, exactly what I have been alluding to the entire time.
All-in-all point still is Hester strives behind what has been the best special teams since before Hester played for the bears. He's a great player, I never said he wasn't, but he is overrated and the only reason people think he is as good as he is happens to be because watching someone run a kick back is one of the most exciting things to watch in football.
QUOTE: Stride refers to the distance of someone running or walking, hence having a good stride means that you stretch out well when you run. Hester has great footwork and can keep his top speed for a long distance, but hardly a great stride.
Then the replace the word stride with pacing. Either way you know what I mean and it's pretty irrelevant to argue a point we both agree is valid, especially when in reality stride has more meaning than just long steps. I'm sure you can find that in the dictionary, or I can do that for you (not being snappy, just saying.)
QUOTE: That's the complete opposite of what you are saying now, which one is it? Hester is THE fast game-speed player in the NFL, hands down.
I NEVER SAID HESTER WASN'T FAST. I NEVER SAID HESTER DIDN'T HAVE AMAZING GAME SPEED. I said SPECIFICALLY that he could maintain his top-end speed (his pacing) better than anyone else I've seen. THAT IS WHAT GAME SPEED IS. jesus. Bro, that's basically what I said... I basically said he's not the fastest guy literally, but his GAME SPEED is amazing, if not the fastest. What I pointed out, was that Hester is not the "fastest" returner in terms of pure, clocked speed. DeAngelo Hall ran a 4.15... that is MUCH faster than the 4.45 Hester ran officially at the combine (the standard tool for evaluating most players), and still much faster than the 4.35 he ran (combined average) at his pro day. My point was that he's not near the fastest player. Not that he wasn't fast. Simply that speed and running in a straight line isn't what makes him good, there's more to it than that.
QUOTE: I never once stated that Tom Brady is ONLY good because of his o-line or that Peyton Manning is ONLY good because of his receivers, but it is a large part of what have made the two as good as they are. You are saying Hester is only good because of Hester which is completely false.
No. You're assuming here. Find me where I said Hester is only good because of Hester. I said Hester plays a HUGE role in it, because he is the one that is physically advancing the ball. That's just obvious.
Lastly, let us not even begin to compare NFL special teams with that of high school. Having a team that even knows what they're doing on special teams in highschool is an obvious and distinct advantage in itself. People know what they're actually doing on the NFL level, both in covering kicks and blocking for kicks. Saying that you were on a highschool team with a not-that-great returner that scored 9 TDs because your special teams was good is not even close to comparable. Special teams are extremely weak in highschool, I think everyone knows that.
Delight you twist your words so much it's not funny and also change your mind when you in fact actually haven't said something when you said you did. You NEVER mentioned Hester's game speed before your last post. You said he was fast but no where near the fastest in the NFL, that doesn't imply game speed at all.
You are also clearly missing the point of my high school football story. First of all good high schools ala the state championship game which we returned 2 punts for TDs (which were the first 2 the team gave up all year on special teams) do have good special teams and the players know what they are doing. The fact of the matter is though it's not about comparing the NFL to high school ball, it was about the EFFORT that you say players don't put in when a less experienced player is in the game, which is completely false.
Either way you twist the facts and seem to completely ignore the actual point making this argument irrelevant.
I never mentioned Hester's game speed before my last post?
QUOTE: What Hester has is great stride. I don't think there's a player in the league that can run at top speed for as long as Hester can. That's what makes him so outstanding.
That means when the pads are on and the game is live, Hester still maintains his top speed as well as anyone I've seen. If you didn't understand that, or I didn't make it clear enough for you, then there's nothing to say about that except clearly you understand what I mean now. So you can stop trying to argue something I agree with.
QUOTE:The fact of the matter is though it's not about comparing the NFL to high school ball, it was about the EFFORT that you say players don't put in when a less experienced player is in the game, which is completely false.
Ok, I'm not saying players put in less effort than the norm. I'm saying players put in MORE effort when they have more of a reason to. I made that very clear in my examples. When I said they don't work as hard with Big Ben back there, I was saying it compared to having Hester. That doesn't mean they don't work hard... it means they work harder with Hester.
If you don't understand what that means... let's put it into perspective.
A great student works hard in school all the time.
One day, their parent comes in and sits next to them to observe them.
They work HARDER because they have more of a reason to.
That isn't to say they don't work hard on a normal basis.
It's a fact of life. It happens ALL THE TIME. It's not a big deal. It doesn't mean they don't work hard without it... it just means they work harder with that incentive. I don't know how many more examples I have to give you to make this better understood. I thought I was doing a good job.
If you think Special Teams players are equally inclined to make big blocks that could risk their health for a guy like Big Ben as consistently as they would Hester or another good returner, you're absolutely crazy. It's pretty basic logic imo...
Wow a few big reachs there. This isn't highschool homework, it's the NFL. Everyone plays as hard as they can hard regardless of who they are playing with, players don't lay down because somebody else is behind them. If they do, they get a nice little chat with the ST coach, except it's not so nice. Or they get cut.
And if anything impresses me about Hester from what I've seen, it's not neccessarily his speed but his acceleration. He is fast and has breakaway speed, sure, but watch him change speeds and completely fool defenders. In that he clip he actually waits, in place, for the gunners to get down to him and then speeds up and breaks a direction before they can react.
QUOTE:Wow a few big reachs there. This isn't highschool homework, it's the NFL. Everyone plays as hard as they can hard regardless of who they are playing with, players don't lay down because somebody else is behind them. If they do, they get a nice little chat with the ST coach, except it's not so nice. Or they get cut.
Ok, once again. You're taking something I'm saying and acting like I'm saying something else. I will say this one more time.
I am not saying anyone "lays down" if there's a less skilled player behind them. They could work very hard at what they do, just like always. But if there is a BETTER player behind them, a really good player that they respect, they, in general, will work HARDER.
The highschool example was simply showing you a clear example of HUMAN NATURE.
Just because someone plays harder for a certain reason, doesn't mean they don't play hard otherwise. It's human nature. I can give you a billion examples of it.
A fireman works hard at what he does. If he's trying to save an animal from a house, he will work hard like always... if he's trying to save a little girl, he will work even HARDER. He'll take more risks.
do you understand this yet. Just the concept of playing harder than normal... even if the normal is already playing hard.
After delight got cal banned for cheating, he applied for his gotfrag PHD to help better the online gaming community with long, stretched out walls of text.
I just love watching the guy, even when he's torching my Vikes. You don't take 12 kicks back (and a 109 yard field goal!?!?!) for TDs in TWO years because of your blocking, it's because you're sick. Dante Hall had one amazing year, Hester has consistently been freakish so far. I don't understand why people would have something bad to say about him, he's so fun to watch!
Delight you can't imply so much and expect someone to understand what you are thinking. Saying he has a great stride and can run at top speeds for a long time has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with game speed, game speed is being able to run faster after your pads are on not running for a long period of time and sustaining a pace. You don't once mention his game speed until after I did as you just pointed out in your own post above by talking about his stride and ability to run for a long period of time at top speeds, which again ISN'T game speed. Plus it's funny how you leave out what you actually said originally
QUOTE:Hester isn't incredibly fast. He's fast, but he's not near the fastest returner in the game.
Hester is the fastest player in the NFL when it matters, on the field.
#30 sums it up well. Your school translation is a stretch. Plus GREAT students always try their hardest, hence they can't try any harder when their parents are there. In reality the Bears have a GREAT special teams and have had it before Hester played for the Bears, therefore they can't try any harder. Did you play competitive sports? I am not trying to bash you if you didn't because I know people who didn't can still be somewhat intelligent about sports, but sports are way different than school and almost any other competitive.
Either way you still ignore the overall point of the entire post, ignore any valid points I make by leaving them out of your post, and continue to twist your words to what you actually HAVEN'T said. Learning to express your words in the proper way is the first step to having people understand what you say. You stretch all your arguments to strengthen them but in reality you are losing all your credibility by changing what you said or saying that you meant that when in reality you most likely didn't.
QUOTE: Plus it's funny how you leave out what you actually said originally
"Hester isn't incredibly fast. He's fast, but he's not near the fastest returner in the game."
... Clearly I was talking about clocked speed, which is why I brought up his 4.45 combine time when you questioned me. And when I say, that despite his clocked speed he can maintain his top speed better than anyone I've seen... do you think I watch him on the track during practice? Or do you think I'm gathering this information from... game film. As in, when the pads are on. As in, he's able to not only reach his top speed (which is GAME SPEED, because pads are on) but he is able to maintain it. If you think a little harder, it's pretty clear... but if it's not, WHO CARES. CLEARLY you understand what I mean now. Because I've now told you half a dozen times that is the way you need to interpret it. You are trying to argue with me over something I AGREE with.
Let's look at this ONE MORE TIME so you understand it.
QUOTE: What Hester has is great stride. I don't think there's a player in the league that can run at top speed for as long as Hester can. That's what makes him so outstanding.
I say, Hester has great stride. I'm referring to his pacing. Look up stride in the dictionary and find the definition that fits the context. Next, I say I don't think there's a player in the league that can run at top-speed for as long as Hester can -- at this point, maybe in some backwards universe you might think "Does he mean on the track?" ... but then I clarify by saying "That's what makes him so outstanding" -- clearly, at this point, you realize I'm talking about running at top speed IN THE GAME, because "That is what makes him so outstanding"... And if I am talking about him maintaining top speed better than anyone I've seen, I am obviously talking about his GAME SPEED at this point, not track speed. But once again, IT DOES NOT MATTER, because I've bluntly told you what I meant a dozen times now. It's up to you to get over it and accept it.
QUOTE:In reality the Bears have a GREAT special teams and have had it before Hester played for the Bears, therefore they can't try any harder.
There's so much wrong in the logic in that quote right there I don't even know where to start.
I'm going to stop. You're not grasping the concept of how people who work hard can be implored to work harder, Christian_Tweedy is already doing his routine rounds of "let's bring up the fact David was wrongfully banned from CAL because I'm a jerk, and it has nothing to do with this topic," and the other guy in this conversation is persistent in telling me what I did, and did not mean, despite the fact I've very clearly explained to him what was meant. And I have no idea how to argue with someone that is agreeing with me.
I've given too many very good examples of working harder based on incentive. I've given realistic football examples, I've given examples with a greater perspective, I've done everything I can. If you can't understand what I'm saying with that, then there's nothing more to say. It's basic logic and I've explained it as well as anyone can. Somehow you find it impossible to see through the context and look at the purpose of the comparisons.
You may think differently about what you think you are saying. I am not arguing the above points just merely pointing out that you NEVER said he had the best game speed or track speed and we all know he has the best game speed but somehow you manage not to use that as an argument until I pointed it out. You can't infer that he has the great ability to run at top speed for a great distance and think that infers game speed, because it flat out has nothing to do with it.
I am obviously evaluating the games otherwise I wouldn't have the basis to say Hester is not the only reason the Bears special teams is so amazing. Track times are merely a reference to see how fast a player is, plus I have always been talking about him having THE FASTEST game speed, you were the one discrediting his speed although it's your strongest argument.
Again you continue to ignore any valid point I make, but that's fine people do that when they are losing an argument.
More reaches. Now you're just trying to change the point completely to irrelevent ideas like whether or not someone can perform above their norm in certain situations. No one is argueing that, adrenaline alone can explain both your firefighter and student. Look at it from the reverse angle. Say Hester is hurt, and has to sit out. One of two things will happen. Either a) the special teams will play to a lower, yet still high level, because they don't feel as inclined to give 100% with the backup returning kicks (this is referred to as a "former nfl player"). Or b), they will realize they have lost skill at the returner position and if anything will try to play harder to account for this descrepency. Which sounds more like a professional football player?
hester is from the U, of course is he going to be fast. And he is damn fun to watch. No tldr essays here, but he is one of my favorite Bears. Just imagine how bad my favorite team would be w/o the great field position he routinely aides them in getting.
QUOTE: they will realize they have lost skill at the returner position and if anything will try to play harder to account for this descrepency
I'm not doing this anymore... but I'll say this (hopefully) last thing.
There's a difference between how you mentally approach a situation without a player, and how you approach a situation without a player for a moment... If your dying father is in the stands, you likely approach the game with a little more intensity than you would otherwise. When he's taken out of the equation, you're playing at a high level the way you normally do. This is the same thing when a star player, such as Hester, is injured for the moment. Players are more inclined to player harder in the moment (this time, urged by subtraction as opposed to addition). The common theme between these two things is they are both momentary gains. These gains do not last beyond the moment. Without Hester for an entire season (under the assumption he was never on the team in the first place), the special teams will be less inclined to play harder, because they are not operating in absence of a player... in their minds, they are simply operating. It's a different mentality. They both are the same thing in essence and both are exactly what I'm saying. (that may not be explained very well, so you might have to do some critical thinking on that).
devin hester
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kfOMM1LCrZ4
ala Eli, Derek Anderson.
is there a Joe Montana bandwagon too? maybe a Barry Sanders wagon. I'd love to hop on those.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hAAgfY_NHzw
What Hester has is great stride. I don't think there's a player in the league that can run at top speed for as long as Hester can. That's what makes him so outstanding.
To say Hester is only good because of the Bears special teams is ridiculous. Obviously you need a good core guys to have a dynamite return game, but the majority of that is on the returner's shoulders.
He'll sometimes have ineffective plays because that's the boom-bust mentality you get when you know you can break one at any time. Barry Sanders always tried to create. Hester always tries to create.
To say the guy "rarely makes a decent play and often loses yards" is not putting things into perspective... at all. And it's really silly.
You'll look back at that statement in history and laugh at yourself. For real. To think Hester couldn't go to another team with a decent special teams and still be the best returner in the game is just ignorance imo... Special teams blockers are implored to play better when they actually have someone that can do something behind them.
Put Big Ben back returning kicks for the bears and you can bet your butt they don't work as hard on their blocks.
To punish Hester because he has a good special teams working with him is just dumb, honestly.
Do you complain that Tom Brady's O-line is too good? Or that Peyton Manning has great receivers?
Does anyone say AP is only good because he runs behind the Vikings O-line? (not jokingly)
You're looking at history in the making and you're brushing it off like it's a result of circumstance...
the guy returned the kickoff in the superbowl to cap it off... sure as heck didn't run in a straight line there (and for the record, most of the clips he doesn't run in a straight line... however that IS the quickest way to the endzone, and your #1 priority).
If there is ANY player in the league that is NOT overrated, it's Devin Hester. And I am NOT a fan of the Bears by any means.
news flash, Peyton manning wasn't a good running back in college. Terrell Owens never excelled on the O-line.
anymore totally irrelevant information you want to point out just let me know.
and he's done that two years in a row.
and he almost did it again in the pre-season (lol) until his teammate tripped him up in the open. and he did it in the superbowl. and he pretty much single-handedly won the Denver game... etc. His impact goes beyond stats. I would even argue his average-per-return isn't absolutely staggering because teams often try to pin him or kick away from him... They try to put the ball in a position that may be great field position for the receiving team, but at least the returner (Hester) wont have an opportunity to return it farther. But yeah, Hester's bred and butter isn't from kickoffs... it's from punts.
Get off his nuts, his play wont win championships.
You're complaining that in college all he did was return kicks? Who the hell cares. He is now in the NFL, the cream of the crop of football, and he is still doing the same thing. Now it's his fault because this is all he does in the NFL? Give the guy a break. Football is a team game, and he is right now one of the Bears' greatest assets.
and if derek anderson has a bandwagon i'm the driver of that sh*t because i've been on his nuts since the day charlie frye was cut.
oh and i'm a huge bears fan. hester's not overrated, and grossman's underrated. hester's the best kick returner to ever play and i'm saying that after his 2nd season in the nfl. after the 1st season, everyone said they wouldn't kick to him anymore because of what he's capable of. guess what...they were very aware what he was capable of the 2nd time around and he still delivered. #12 a return for a TD has a tremendous impact on a game...it just shifts the momentum so much that it's easy to use that as a play to jump start a comeback or a drive to pull away from your opponent.
it's pretty obvious you don't know football so i'm just gonna stop now. you shouldn't make remarks about football if the only game you watch out of the season is the superbowl.
and the bears just need an offense now (and less injuries plz) to take advantage of the incredible field position they get from having hester deep.
edit: and he's great for the league. he's so much fun to watch because you know at any time he can take one to the house...it's similar to watching michael vick or barry sanders.
Hester is one of the fastest players in the ENTIRE NFL. He ran a 4.35 40 coming out of college. Only three NFL players are clocked at under a 4.3 time and only a handful more are clocked at 4.33 and this doesn't even take into account game speed. Hester is considered the fastest in pad player in the league, if you can name another I would be impressed, especially a returner. Hester doesn't have a large stride at all he actually has a rather small stride watch the video it's pretty small and jittery, Randy Moss has what is a large stride granted he taller.
I am not taking all Hester's credit I just find it funny that everyone thinks he is so spectacular when in reality he is only THAT good because of the players around him.
To say put Big Ben back there and the players won't try is just stupid. First of all special teams is how you make it on a team when you are a young player. Those guys are always giving 110% and second of all is that why the Bears special teams was so successful when RW McQuarters used to return punts for the Bears? He was one of the best in the league.
Haha complaining? I am hardly complaining. If you haven't heard someone say that Tom Brady is good because of his O-line or Peyton Manning is as good as he is because of his receivers then you obviously don't talk football very often or with very intelligent people.
Peyton Manning is a prime example actually. Look at how well he did when he has had injuries through his receiving core, good hardly great.
AP? He is good in large part to his O-line, but also a spectacular player. That's why he averages, 4 yards to the right side and almost 7 yards to the left side of the line where 2 probowlers play.
All these players are great players and all players are affected by the team around them no doubt. Hester happens to have the best special teams in the league though. What he does is still good I never said it wasn't but if you really think he is the least overrated player in the league you are kidding yourself. Tom Brady wins that hands down (LT a close second), he wins year after year and hasn't had great players around him until las year. Hester is hyped every week and if you look at the special teams of the teams he scores against they aren't exactly great special teams. The Broncos and Vikings had some of the leagues worst special teams.
All records are broken by teams you can say what you want but it's the truth. In reality Hester will break the records for return TD's and possibly yards although he is really only a big play threat and doesn't have the consistency. Point is he is overrated and I really can't wait to see him make a fool of himself playing WR next year.
First of all, Devin Hester ran a 4.45 40 yard dash at the 2006 combine, not a 4.35. I know that because it was a pretty big knock on him at the time. He ran better on his pro day, but he ran 4.45 at the combine.
Besides... there are plenty of returners that clock at 4.3 speed. 4.35 is irrelevant come game time... 4.35, 4.39, 4.33, 4.32... they are all the same. Just off the top of my head...
DeAngelo Hall clocked a 4.15 if I remember
Maurice Drew clocked a 4.39, and he's no-where near the fastest returner.
Reggie Bush was 4.33
And I never said Hester had a great long stride, I said he had a great stride. There's a difference. Not sure where you got long stride from.
There are plenty of guys about as fast, or faster than Hester clocked in at. But like I said, it's gamespeed (his constant top-end speed... his stride) that makes him so good. You're just repeating what I'm saying.
Um... I said that with the understanding that that is a terrible argument to make. No intelligent person makes that argument. No "intelligent" football people say Tom Brady is only good because of his line, or Manning is only good because of his receivers. It's dumb to do that, and that's my point. Obviously it helps, but to say they are players of circumstance is ludicrous.
And Hester being good, or bad at WR next year doesn't have anything to do with anything. I don't think I've ever said once that he's a great receiver. He's a great player at his position (returner).
And the Big Ben comment is totally relevant. It's just a fact of life, people work harder when they have more reason to work. If you don't think that's true, you need more life experience... at anything. Because it applies to everything. There's not some magical exception to that rule just because you're on a football field. An O-line blocks harder for a good RB, a WR works harder with a good QB, most QB try* to take better care of the ball with a good defense. And most special teams players work harder when you have Hester, or Cribbs, or anyone of the likes behind them. That's reality. It's not debatable. It's contradictory to say the Bears have this hall-of-fame-worthy special teams blocking for him, and allude to the fact that they have an issue with job security. It doesn't go both ways. Yes, special teams players generally are always trying to prove something, but yes, you still work harder with more reason to work. That's life. Furthermore, they're not about to give him a big fat contract if it's true they could really throw just anyone in there and have them be effective. Let's be sensible here.
Ok you're just talking at this point.
Peyton went over 4,000 yards for the 8th time in his career last year. He completed 65.4% of his passes (better than his career average). He threw for 31 TDs (tied for third-most of his career).
He had a 98 QB rating (higher than his career average, yet again).
Top it all off with the fact that Peyton has only thrown for over 4,000 yards and 30 TDs three times prior in his entire career... where you get off saying he played merely "good" and not "great" is disinformation. Obviously, he would play better with Marvin fully healthy, but he still played great... not just by anyone elses standards, but by his own career standards.
Ran a 4.24 at the combine.
I got to see him run in real life and that dude is absolute lightning. Honestly I would say hes more elusive than Hester. Ive never seen anybody who can change direction the way he can
Him and Lendale White are going to be the perfect thunder and lightning combination, watch out.
First of all I never mentioned the combine, Hester did however run a 4.35 coming out of college. Secondly thank you for summing up my argument that he is one of the fastest players in the NFL you just named a handful who are about the same speed, exactly like what I said previously. DeAngelo Hall was not clocked like players are at the combine, a track coach used a stop watch so there is a large margin of error on his time although he does still run in the 4.33 range.
Stride refers to the distance of someone running or walking, hence having a good stride means that you stretch out well when you run. Hester has great footwork and can keep his top speed for a long distance, but hardly a great stride.
You have never stated that Hester has great game speed that is what I originally said. As you said before:
That's the complete opposite of what you are saying now, which one is it? Hester is THE fast game-speed player in the NFL, hands down.
Fair enough, I just can't wait for him to embarrass himself and see all Chicago's fans get upset.
I never once stated that Tom Brady is ONLY good because of his o-line or that Peyton Manning is ONLY good because of his receivers, but it is a large part of what have made the two as good as they are. You are saying Hester is only good because of Hester which is completely false.
Let me tell you a story about special teams. I played special teams all four years of my high school career. We had a kid on our team who had 9 return touchdowns his junior year and 15 more his senior year. He would be the first person to tell you that it wasn't because he was such a good returner it was because the blocking was so good. To further this point let me tell you something else. Our special players, not returner was the reason so many touchdowns were scored off of returns. We had a backup returner have 2 touchdowns his junior year and then 3 more his senior year on way less returns. Are you trying to tell me that we didn't try as hard when a backup came in? Hardly the team knew what it was capable of and it wasn't just one player fueling it. Also the special teams of the bears is as good as they are because of the effort put forth not necessarily the skill they possess. They know if they make the team in their first few years that they will eventually become a position player, so it does go both ways. Again the Bears had a ton of success when RW McQuarters was their returner just a few years ago, Hester has better numbers because he is faster and has the break away speed, exactly what I have been alluding to the entire time.
All-in-all point still is Hester strives behind what has been the best special teams since before Hester played for the bears. He's a great player, I never said he wasn't, but he is overrated and the only reason people think he is as good as he is happens to be because watching someone run a kick back is one of the most exciting things to watch in football.
Then the replace the word stride with pacing. Either way you know what I mean and it's pretty irrelevant to argue a point we both agree is valid, especially when in reality stride has more meaning than just long steps. I'm sure you can find that in the dictionary, or I can do that for you (not being snappy, just saying.)
I NEVER SAID HESTER WASN'T FAST. I NEVER SAID HESTER DIDN'T HAVE AMAZING GAME SPEED. I said SPECIFICALLY that he could maintain his top-end speed (his pacing) better than anyone else I've seen. THAT IS WHAT GAME SPEED IS. jesus. Bro, that's basically what I said... I basically said he's not the fastest guy literally, but his GAME SPEED is amazing, if not the fastest. What I pointed out, was that Hester is not the "fastest" returner in terms of pure, clocked speed. DeAngelo Hall ran a 4.15... that is MUCH faster than the 4.45 Hester ran officially at the combine (the standard tool for evaluating most players), and still much faster than the 4.35 he ran (combined average) at his pro day. My point was that he's not near the fastest player. Not that he wasn't fast. Simply that speed and running in a straight line isn't what makes him good, there's more to it than that.
No. You're assuming here. Find me where I said Hester is only good because of Hester. I said Hester plays a HUGE role in it, because he is the one that is physically advancing the ball. That's just obvious.
Lastly, let us not even begin to compare NFL special teams with that of high school. Having a team that even knows what they're doing on special teams in highschool is an obvious and distinct advantage in itself. People know what they're actually doing on the NFL level, both in covering kicks and blocking for kicks. Saying that you were on a highschool team with a not-that-great returner that scored 9 TDs because your special teams was good is not even close to comparable. Special teams are extremely weak in highschool, I think everyone knows that.
You are also clearly missing the point of my high school football story. First of all good high schools ala the state championship game which we returned 2 punts for TDs (which were the first 2 the team gave up all year on special teams) do have good special teams and the players know what they are doing. The fact of the matter is though it's not about comparing the NFL to high school ball, it was about the EFFORT that you say players don't put in when a less experienced player is in the game, which is completely false.
Either way you twist the facts and seem to completely ignore the actual point making this argument irrelevant.
That means when the pads are on and the game is live, Hester still maintains his top speed as well as anyone I've seen. If you didn't understand that, or I didn't make it clear enough for you, then there's nothing to say about that except clearly you understand what I mean now. So you can stop trying to argue something I agree with.
Ok, I'm not saying players put in less effort than the norm. I'm saying players put in MORE effort when they have more of a reason to. I made that very clear in my examples. When I said they don't work as hard with Big Ben back there, I was saying it compared to having Hester. That doesn't mean they don't work hard... it means they work harder with Hester.
If you don't understand what that means... let's put it into perspective.
A great student works hard in school all the time.
One day, their parent comes in and sits next to them to observe them.
They work HARDER because they have more of a reason to.
That isn't to say they don't work hard on a normal basis.
It's a fact of life. It happens ALL THE TIME. It's not a big deal. It doesn't mean they don't work hard without it... it just means they work harder with that incentive. I don't know how many more examples I have to give you to make this better understood. I thought I was doing a good job.
If you think Special Teams players are equally inclined to make big blocks that could risk their health for a guy like Big Ben as consistently as they would Hester or another good returner, you're absolutely crazy. It's pretty basic logic imo...
not gonna write an essay about it though
And if anything impresses me about Hester from what I've seen, it's not neccessarily his speed but his acceleration. He is fast and has breakaway speed, sure, but watch him change speeds and completely fool defenders. In that he clip he actually waits, in place, for the gunners to get down to him and then speeds up and breaks a direction before they can react.
Ok, once again. You're taking something I'm saying and acting like I'm saying something else. I will say this one more time.
I am not saying anyone "lays down" if there's a less skilled player behind them. They could work very hard at what they do, just like always. But if there is a BETTER player behind them, a really good player that they respect, they, in general, will work HARDER.
The highschool example was simply showing you a clear example of HUMAN NATURE.
Just because someone plays harder for a certain reason, doesn't mean they don't play hard otherwise. It's human nature. I can give you a billion examples of it.
A fireman works hard at what he does. If he's trying to save an animal from a house, he will work hard like always... if he's trying to save a little girl, he will work even HARDER. He'll take more risks.
do you understand this yet. Just the concept of playing harder than normal... even if the normal is already playing hard.
#33 it's because they hatin' on him since he's not doing it for their team
Hester is the fastest player in the NFL when it matters, on the field.
#30 sums it up well. Your school translation is a stretch. Plus GREAT students always try their hardest, hence they can't try any harder when their parents are there. In reality the Bears have a GREAT special teams and have had it before Hester played for the Bears, therefore they can't try any harder. Did you play competitive sports? I am not trying to bash you if you didn't because I know people who didn't can still be somewhat intelligent about sports, but sports are way different than school and almost any other competitive.
Either way you still ignore the overall point of the entire post, ignore any valid points I make by leaving them out of your post, and continue to twist your words to what you actually HAVEN'T said. Learning to express your words in the proper way is the first step to having people understand what you say. You stretch all your arguments to strengthen them but in reality you are losing all your credibility by changing what you said or saying that you meant that when in reality you most likely didn't.
... Clearly I was talking about clocked speed, which is why I brought up his 4.45 combine time when you questioned me. And when I say, that despite his clocked speed he can maintain his top speed better than anyone I've seen... do you think I watch him on the track during practice? Or do you think I'm gathering this information from... game film. As in, when the pads are on. As in, he's able to not only reach his top speed (which is GAME SPEED, because pads are on) but he is able to maintain it. If you think a little harder, it's pretty clear... but if it's not, WHO CARES. CLEARLY you understand what I mean now. Because I've now told you half a dozen times that is the way you need to interpret it. You are trying to argue with me over something I AGREE with.
Let's look at this ONE MORE TIME so you understand it.
I say, Hester has great stride. I'm referring to his pacing. Look up stride in the dictionary and find the definition that fits the context. Next, I say I don't think there's a player in the league that can run at top-speed for as long as Hester can -- at this point, maybe in some backwards universe you might think "Does he mean on the track?" ... but then I clarify by saying "That's what makes him so outstanding" -- clearly, at this point, you realize I'm talking about running at top speed IN THE GAME, because "That is what makes him so outstanding"... And if I am talking about him maintaining top speed better than anyone I've seen, I am obviously talking about his GAME SPEED at this point, not track speed. But once again, IT DOES NOT MATTER, because I've bluntly told you what I meant a dozen times now. It's up to you to get over it and accept it.
There's so much wrong in the logic in that quote right there I don't even know where to start.
I'm going to stop. You're not grasping the concept of how people who work hard can be implored to work harder, Christian_Tweedy is already doing his routine rounds of "let's bring up the fact David was wrongfully banned from CAL because I'm a jerk, and it has nothing to do with this topic," and the other guy in this conversation is persistent in telling me what I did, and did not mean, despite the fact I've very clearly explained to him what was meant. And I have no idea how to argue with someone that is agreeing with me.
I've given too many very good examples of working harder based on incentive. I've given realistic football examples, I've given examples with a greater perspective, I've done everything I can. If you can't understand what I'm saying with that, then there's nothing more to say. It's basic logic and I've explained it as well as anyone can. Somehow you find it impossible to see through the context and look at the purpose of the comparisons.
I am obviously evaluating the games otherwise I wouldn't have the basis to say Hester is not the only reason the Bears special teams is so amazing. Track times are merely a reference to see how fast a player is, plus I have always been talking about him having THE FASTEST game speed, you were the one discrediting his speed although it's your strongest argument.
Again you continue to ignore any valid point I make, but that's fine people do that when they are losing an argument.
Look at it from the reverse angle. Say Hester is hurt, and has to sit out. One of two things will happen. Either a) the special teams will play to a lower, yet still high level, because they don't feel as inclined to give 100% with the backup returning kicks (this is referred to as a "former nfl player"). Or b), they will realize they have lost skill at the returner position and if anything will try to play harder to account for this descrepency. Which sounds more like a professional football player?
hester is from the U, of course is he going to be fast. And he is damn fun to watch. No tldr essays here, but he is one of my favorite Bears. Just imagine how bad my favorite team would be w/o the great field position he routinely aides them in getting.
I'm not doing this anymore... but I'll say this (hopefully) last thing.
There's a difference between how you mentally approach a situation without a player, and how you approach a situation without a player for a moment... If your dying father is in the stands, you likely approach the game with a little more intensity than you would otherwise. When he's taken out of the equation, you're playing at a high level the way you normally do. This is the same thing when a star player, such as Hester, is injured for the moment. Players are more inclined to player harder in the moment (this time, urged by subtraction as opposed to addition). The common theme between these two things is they are both momentary gains. These gains do not last beyond the moment. Without Hester for an entire season (under the assumption he was never on the team in the first place), the special teams will be less inclined to play harder, because they are not operating in absence of a player... in their minds, they are simply operating. It's a different mentality. They both are the same thing in essence and both are exactly what I'm saying. (that may not be explained very well, so you might have to do some critical thinking on that).
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